EPISODE: 122
DATE: November 19th, 2012
TITLE: Plentiful Perfunctory Programs
SPEAKERS: Dave Jones & Chris Gammell
SOURCE FILE: http://traffic.libsyn.com/theamphour/TheAmpHour-122-PlentifulPerfunctoryPrograms.mp3
FILE ARCHIVE: https://theamphour.com/the-amp-hour-122-plentiful-perfunctory-programs/
CG
This is The Amp Hour podcast, recorded November 19th, 2012. Episode 122 Plentiful Perfunctory Programs. [1:00]
[Music]
[01:07]
DJ
Welcome to The Amp Hour. I’m Dave Jones from the EEVblog
CG
And I’m Chris Gamell of ChipReport TV and Chris Gamell’s Analogue Life. [01:16]
DJ
Hey Chris, I’m back! [01:17]
CG
You are. Welcome back Dave. [01:20]
DJ
Thank you. You held down the fort last week. [01:21]
CG
I did, I did. I had a nice interview with Zach. He was a great guest, I enjoyed it. [01:26]
DJ
I’m sorry I missed it. [01:27]
CG
You had promised me Mars and instead I got Facebook. What’s up with that?! [01:33]
DJ
Buzz Aldrin is pissed! [01:37]
CG
Buzz Aldrin! That was great. [01:41]
DJ
I love Buzz. I love Buzz, he’s great. [01:43]
CG
I do too. [01:52]
DJ
He’s good value. [01:53]
CG
Yeah, he’s awesome. [01:54]
DJ
He was talking about how we need to find an image of Buzz Aldrin flipping the bird [01:56]
CG
That’s right. [01:58[
DJ
So I’m putting this out. Casually flipping the bird, like, you know, flipping it Wildler-style, you know, the famous Wildler poster. [02:02]
CG
Yeah, right. We’re looking for another T-shirt here. That’s the ultimate. [2:09]
DJ
Yeah, so we’re going to crowd-source this one. If you can find a picture of Aldrin flipping the bird, please post it! [02:17]
CG
[laughs]
DJ
And he makes a great point. You know? We’re supposed to have Mars colonies by now. [02:27}
CG
Right, yeah. [02:28]
DJ
And we’ve got bloody Facebook! And if you look at it, you know, how much Facebook is worth and other companies like that, we probably… [02:38]
CG
“Worth” [02:39]
DJ
Yeah! We could’ve gone to Mars, right? It’s unbelievable. [02:42]
CG
Yeah, well it’s all about priorities, really? But I posted about this because it’s like, well, even in the midst of what we talk about like Kickstarter and the Kick business or even consumer-level or even professional -level electronics, sometimes it seems kind of trite compared to the really big goals of going to frigging Mars. [03:02]
DJ
Exactly! I’m doing a piss-ant power supply kit. What? Why? You know? [03:08]
CG
Right. [03:09]
DJ
I’m always talking about I can fly to the moon on 2 watts. [03:16]
CG
Right, well prove it! [03:18]
DJ
Yeah, you know what? I know. Slacker! Unbelievable. [03:22]
CG
Yeah. [03:23]
DJ
It’s a very valid point. [03:24]
CG
Yeah. I don’t know what to do about it. I guess if anyone did they would probably start doing it.
Yeah, we see people like Elon Musk. Elon Musk said …. [03:43]
DJ
Of course, yeah. He’s not mucking around. [03:37]
CG
Yeah. [03:38]
DJ
But you gotta have money or power or both. Right? Just having the drive and the ambition and the ideas isn’t enough.
Because these grand things take grand amounts of money and grand amounts of resources. And nobody since Kennedy has had the balls, the vision to lay ‘em out there and go, right, we’re going to do this. [04:09]
CG
Yeah, you know I always wonder about that because, you know, I’m not an economist and I wouldn’t ever dare become one! But I always wonder what that means in terms of … I think we talked about this 2 weeks ago, even, just about the multipliers. If you put $100 into a space programme you’d only get the people going out and buying test gear and paying sub-contractors and stuff like that but also the future investment you get from the apples forming later on based on commoditised technology and all that kind of stuff in terms of the economic development that is really long-term.
Wow, we’ve devolved into politics real fast didn’t we?! [04:53]
DJ
We did! And it’s impossible to foresee those sorts of things. [05:01]
CG
It is. [05:02]
DJ
From putting your money into a good space programme, it is hard to convince people that there are so many spin-off benefits for an entire country or an entire planet or an entire industry. Or all three. [05:18]
CG
Yeah, and sometimes rightly so. A lot of companies are having a tough time right now. Aside from the fact that a lot of them have trouble at the top seeing past the next quarter it’s tough just seeing the next year because of slowing economies and everything else. So it is tough. [05:36]
DJ
This is a little whinge I had on the list here, is that it always comes down to that one big number. How much did you earn this quarter or this year and how much are you paying the bloody shareholders?
I was just reading a release from Agilent. They’re going, “Yeah we made this billion this year and we’re returning X amount of cents to shareholders and improving their value, wank, wank, wank”.
And it seems like the products and the technology are just down in the noise and they just don’t matter. You know?
Whereas us engineers … [06:16]
CG
Until the business dried up! [06:17]
DJ
Right. Until they don’t sell anymore. [06:19]
CG
Then they go, “We need to invest”, then they go back to ignoring it. Right? [06:22]
DJ
Right. Speaking of which, TI are going to axe – how many:? [06:28]
CG
1,400 jobs. [06:30]
DJ
1,400 they’ve given the arse. They’re all getting the arse. No, it’s 1,700. [06:35]
CG
Oh 1,700. OK. [06:36]
DJ
So sorry to anyone who’s working in the OMAP division ‘cos I think that’s where most of the cuts, or a majority [06:45]
CG
Yes, that’s the main thing they’re getting rid of. This is the race to the bottom of the ARM and tablet-type wars, where you have chip processor companies that are manufacturing the chips that are using similar IP – a lot of it is ARM based, a lot has peripherals wrapped round it.
It’s really hard to play in that market. [7:05]
DJ
But these companies are moving out to their own manufacturing, manufacturing their own chips now. Like Apple’s making their own chips.
And now they’re talking, I think we might have mentioned it a few weeks back, ‘cos this isn’t new news about TI wanting to spin off OMAP, it’s been in the news for quite some time about them looking to perhaps sell it, sell the OMAP division perhaps to Amazon for their Kindle.
Because Amazon use the OMAP in their Kindle, they are probably the OMAP’s biggest customer, I don’t know, but I would suspect they’d be one of the biggest if anything. [07:40]
CG
I was looking at this and I was thinking about the O-Map. I was thinking when we talked about it that this shouldn’t just go to Amazon, what about everybody else? I didn’t realise it was kind of an all-or nothing thing – if it’s not going to someone it’s going to the toilet, we’ll throw it away! [08:01]
DJ
Well, they’re throwing away the R&D on new ones, they’re still going to manufacture it I think, even if the sale doesn’t go through. They’re making the cuts in the R&D side of things. [08:07]
CG
Right, which means it’s dead. [08:15]
DJ
That’s right. As soon as this article comes out you instantly go “Oh shit, I’m moving.” Pack up you bat and ball and go home. Go to another vendor. [08:40]
CG
You could do that. You could risk it and try it now and say maybe I’ll get lower priced parts but that’s a short-term thing. [8:52]
DJ
Right. They would have customers, most of these big-chip companies do, they have them tied up in supply contracts so it’s not like they can just break them. So they have to continue to manufacture these chips.
But rarely is, well I don’t think I’ve ever heard of one where there’s a contract which says we have to continue to develop a product and improve a product. [09:21]
CG
Yeah, right. [09:22]
DJ
Yeah, you just have to make it … [09:26]
CG
You have to support it as well. [09:29]
DJ
You have to support it as well, yep. [09:31]]
CG
There’s no more of that trusty Zylinx tool where you say, “Oh, it’s not working? Upgrade the software to the next version.” Well you can’t upgrade the next chip version there is nothing but errata so deal with it! [09:46]
DJ
Yeah! (laughs) I mean, yeah! In terms of like chip manufacturing they probably like it because now it’s just all money, right? It’s just all, you just make the process more efficient, you shrink the dye as much as possible, you try to keep it, you keep your process controls in place but eventually, you know, you’re not spending any new money on it so it looks really good in the accounting books but in terms of, you know, longevity of a product obviously it’s dead in the water.
So that’s kind of what you were talking about with the one big number. I mean this looks great for that one big number. [10:17]
CG
Of course! [10:18]
DJ
Share price jumped up, expenses drop, engineers, all these people are now not on the books anymore and of course they think it’s great. [10:32]
CG
Profit goes up, exactly. [10:33]
DJ
It looks great for shareholders but it’s such short-term thinking that it’s just, like … I mean we see it all the time, it’s continuous [10:43]
CG
I was concerned about this for the BeagleBoard. It’s based on OMAP and I actually saw Jeff Kaiser talking about this and then Jason Kridner cut in and said it’s only in the original Beagle Bones that the OMAP is on.
The BeagleBoard, the original one has the OMAP. The BeagleBoard XM and the Beagle Bone do not have [11:15]
DJ
Oh! They use some other ARM do they? [11:17]
CG
Yea, the BeagleBone uses Sitara. I have kind of blown this out of the water, it’s another TI product, another ARM-based [11:27]
DJ
Oh, right. [11:28]
CG
I think it’s single core though. I could be wrong about that. But basically it’s … I even told my co-worker about this today, TI shutting down the OMAP line.
It’s like they are shutting down their whole process line. He said, “Really?” and I stepped back and said that’s not true because they still have P430, they still have Sitara and they, you know, I think they’re … [11:48]
DJ
They’ve got a whole bunch of stuff. Yes. [11:54]
CG
I don’t think the whole range of it … at the same time it’s crappy! [11:56]
DJ
And here’s where all your ARM fans jump out of the woodwork. “No problem. Arm, beautiful you just solder in a new chip from another vendor!” yeah! It ain’t that easy, you’ve got to do significant engineering to change vendors.
Or even the same vendor to a different ARM product within the same vendor you have to do significant engineering with that. [12:20]
CG
Right. I had posted an EGM article about ‘There was one processor to rule them all’. I was talking about ARM.
The author was talking about could this happen? Could there just be one ARM or just one platform?
I said no. it’s not actually the question that should be asked – it is SHOULD there only be one processor family? Or one overall architecture? One overall way of doing this?
I think no. Sure, it can be great, it can be a majority holder but what happens if ARM takes a dump tomorrow? [12:58]
DJ
History has shown that it doesn’t happen. I mean there’s nothing new in today’s market that makes ARM magic. This could have happened 30 years ago. Right? You know? Intel with their huge run. Intel was used in bloody well everything.
There’s always niche markets or those other big markets that are catered for. It’s just not going to happen. [13:23]
CG
Yes, it’s just the majority case right? [13:24]
DJ
Yeah. [13:25]
CG
It’s just a lot of people are using ARM because the licensing is there and it’s good core to drop in and you can get rid of all your overhead, also known as your engineers that work on processor architecture, right? [13:41]
DJ
No. If you’re betting on ARM is going to be 99.9% of processors used in every single electronic product on the planet in the next 20 years I think you’re dreaming. [13:51]
CG
Yeah, exactly because as soon as they become the sleepy giant then some other young upstart comes and starts … [14:00]
DJ
Yeah, and comes out with a free core, hey look no fee, hey, how’s that? [14:03]
CG
Yeah, right. Right. Didn’t MIPS get sold? I didn’t actually post that story. [14:09]
DJ
I don’t know. Haven’t heard. [14:10]
CG
I thought I saw that MIPS was no longer … because they were a company and a core, I thought. I thought the company got divvied up among a bunch of people. [14:21]
DJ
Oh, OK. [14:22]
CG
But their core ARM is in a lot of products. [14:24]
DJ
Yea, it’s in the microchip 32 bit picks and stuff like that, and quite a few others. It’s fairly popular. [14:31]
CG
Right, yeah. And so, I mean it’s not like ARM is the only one. But that’s the way it should be. There should be competition among them because that’s going to cause the greatest amount of innovation. What else will push ARM?
I’m not a very big fan of this. I think we talked about how Freescale is moving over to ARM and I’m not a very big fan of that just because … I mean you could open up a whole lot of new markets like that if you are a chip maker. It’s great, you can say now we can sell parts to everyone.
Well you can, but now you are going to sell them for 50c whereas you were selling them for $5 before. [15:08]
DJ
Yeah and you only make a 1c profit on each part! [15:09]
CG
Yeah, exactly. You’re putting yourself into the meat grinder. I know I sound very contradictory because on the one hand I say I don’t want to lock myself into platforms. On the other hand I say well these companies should want to lock people into their platforms! [15:27]
DJ
(laughs) [15:28]
CG
But that’s constant struggle of business, right? Consumers want the most options and vendors want one option, namely theirs! Exclusively theirs! [15:37]
DJ
Oh boy. I don’t know. There’s no easy answer but there will continue to be other options. That’s bullshit.
ARM’s not going dominate the entire planet. It’s just not going to happen. [15:50]
CG
Right. [15:51]
DJ
Speaking of discontinued products … [15:52]
CG
OK [15:53]
DJ
I’m pissed. End of an era. [15:59]
CG
What’s that? [16:00]
DJ
Hakko have discontinued the FX888. Apparently you can get it … [16:07]
CG
What is the FX888? Explain this for people that don’t own one … like me! [16:10]
DJ
It’s a soldering iron which basically follows the line from the famous Hakko 926 which I still have on my bench, I have had it for, like, 25 years maybe. It’s my 2nd iron here on the bench.
Then they moved to the Hakko 936, then they moved to the FX888, with its fancy new industrial design case and its funky yellow & blue colour and stuff like that.
A basic analogue soldering iron with a knob. You know those knob things? [16:45]
CG
Yeah! [16:46]
DJ
Which all these whippersnappers haven’t heard of? Where you actually turn a knob and it has a scale on it. 350 degrees, turn it around. No!
Apparently they are going to stop selling the analogue model and they are only going to sell the FX888D, which is the digital model. [17:05]
CG
Ah! [17:06]
DJ
I’ve nothing against a digital readout, fine, but give me a freaking knob!!
Now they just have these up-down buttons which apparently have all these different modes and crap. [17:16]
CG
But now with processors so cheap, you’ve got to use them right? You’ve got to put them in every product? [17:20]
DJ
You’ve got to use that 10c micro, that 50c Arm. [17:21]
CG
We’re going to put them everywhere! [17:31]
DJ
Bastards! [17:34]
CG
Well, that’s too bad. [17:36]
DJ
Unbelievable. Hakko, this is like one of the industry standard soldering irons. Especially have dominated the Australian market. Everyone has been using the Hakko 926 and 936 for 30 years now or something. 20, 25 years at least.
Why? As if it wasn’t selling! It was selling like hot cakes as far as I’m aware. [18:00]
CG
Well yeah you don’t know that for real but very well could be, right? [18:03]
DJ
Yeah. I don’t know. It’s just stupid. Give me a knob! For goodness sake! [18:12]
CG
Well that could be a lot of things, right/ that really could be, more than likely, it’s cost. Digital was almost always cheaper than analogue in terms of specially because you have … [18:21]
DJ
I don’t think so. I think the FX888 – you’ve got to have 3 x 7-segment displays on there. You’ve got to have a couple of tactile switches. [18:26]
CG
Oh please! [18:26]
DJ
All that is not more expensive than a wiper pod [18:32]
CG
You have to have a reliable … you know as well as anyone that if you put a switch onto a board and if it’s no good you’re going to get big complaints non-stop and if it’s on a soldering iron doubly so because if you turn your soldering iron up to 4 and it goes up to 20! [18:53]
DJ
Laughs [18:43]
CG
You’re screwed! You burn the tip off right? [18:54]
DJ
At the very least it’s cost neutral, right? Between the 2 in terms of … [19:00]
CG
I don’t’ think so man! [19:04]
DJ
You’ve got the … [19:05]
CG
I love this as much as anyone … [19:07]
DJ
No, no, no, you’re fluffing around the edges. [19:10]
CG
How about manufacturing costs? How about that? If you have wires and something, if you are going to start point-to-point wiring you need … [19:18]
DJ
There is no wiring in this. It’s a PCB mounted .. [19:21]
CG
OK. I’ve never pulled one apart! [19:22]
DJ
It’s a PCB mounted part. [19:26]
CG
Yeah, I’ve got to start watching your videos at some point! [19:28]
DJ
Right. Come on, most of the cost in something like this goes into the transformer and the case and, you know. [19:35]
CG
Mechanical. [19:36]
DJ
Yeah, hunking bit of iron. For a good quality transformer which these ones have, that costs the majority of the money. [19:46]
CG
You’d be surprised at how much people get costs out of transformers. I have seen some transformers go overseas and get pretty cheap! [19:53]
DJ
Yeah but we are talking like a bit 80-watt transformer here. It’s a big hunking bit of iron. [20:00]
CG
Right. [20:01]
DJ
Anyway I can’t believe it’s just purely a cost issue. That’s got to be bullshit. Something else is going on there. Anyway I’m not happy! [20:10]
CG
That’s too bad. [20:11]
DJ
It sucks. [20:13]
CG
It’s the end of an era, right? [20:14]
DJ
Yeah, exactly. [20:16]
CG
At the same time, we should celebrate change but we’re human, we don’t want to change our ways. [28:24]
DJ
No, exactly. We like our products. Engineers don’t like change. [20:28]
CG
That’s right. Speaking of change, did you see the announcement about Intel? We had a bit of change announced. [20:38]
DJ
CEO steps down – reties? [20:43]
CG
Yeah. [20:47]
DJ
I didn’t even know who old Toleny is. Didn’t even know who ran Intel these days. Couldn’t care less. [20:51]
CG
Yeah, he’s in charge. He’s not bad. [20:52]
DJ
Yeah, whatever. I’m shrugging my shoulders here. [20:55]
CG
I know! Intel’s kind of beyond, it’s like out of the stratosphere in terms of companies. [21:00]
DJ
Of caring?! [21:03]
CG
Yeah. In terms of who actually designs the parts in. to get their attention you need to be a super high volume manufacturer. [21:11]
DJ
Yeah, a Dell or HP. [21:13]
CG
At the same time, you know, it could be an interesting thing because Intel keeps dancing on the, well we’re going to go into phones. We just saw Ti and say I’m not touching that with a 10-foot pole but now Intel might go touching it! [21:33]
DJ
(laughs) This doesn’t sound good! Sounds suss! [21:36]
CG
Well I mean, Intel jump in and out of the embedded market and screw people over. [21:46]
DJ
Yeah, Intel … no, Intel made their history on the desktop pc and that’s for ever where they will pretty much remain, I think. [21:56]
CG
Yeah, it sucks when you optimise for that kind of stuff, right? They have a huge operation right? [22:02]
DJ
Oh, yeah, massive. [22:03]
CG
But it’s all based around these super high end super leading edge processors. [22:11]
DJ
Massive with these massive dyes in them with, what a billion transistors now or something? [22:14]
CG
Yeah, and then they come back and say you should look at our Intel Core i7. Check out this Adam processor. Wah, wah, wah! [22:26]
DJ
What happened to Adam? I know yeah! It’s still used in like some netbooks and stuff isn’t it? [22:29]
CG
Yeah but in terms of their flagship product … you reviewed this ??? 4,000 series. It’s like Agelent rolling out a 4000 series sco??? And then turning around and saying wait a second, check out this bottom of the line cheapest entry model. That’s effectively what it is! [22:51]
DJ
Every badge from ??? [22:55]
CG
Exactly. Granted Intel’s not doing that but that would be the equivalent kind of thing. Maybe you should pay attention to the bottom of the line but buy a lot of them because we need it! [23:04]
DJ
Oh boy. To get that one big number looking good. [23:12]
CG
Yeah. [23:13]
DJ
Bastards. [23:14]
CG
OK, here we go. I know we have been jumping around a lot already this week but we have to talk about this 4000 series scope. Do you know what I’m going to bring up here? [23:22]
DJ
Ah not the tablets! It’s a croc of shit! You would’ve been able to brag if they actually didn’t put a screen in it and then you had to use your tablet. [23:33]
CG
Tell people what it is first cos then I’ll get posts about your review. [23:37]
DJ
I haven’t actually used it for …. This scope is a Windows CE-0based scope, right? Just like all the other. [23:47]
CG
Big touch-screen? [23:48]
DJ
Yeah. It has a big touch-screen on it. What they’ve done is add a menu system up there to allow you to control the scope from a tablet if you so choose. And they’ve made this marketing plan that you can just sit back on your bean bag and sit there with your tablet and control your scope. Woopy-frickin doo is my response! [24:10]
CG
I agree! [24:12]
DJ
It’s pointless! A scope is a hands-on instrument. We’re always probing shit and doing stuff. You’re always within reach of it! To add a tablet control capability is so niche and stupid! It puts it in the ‘woop-dy-doo’ category! [24:30]
CG
I agree with that. I totally agree but – and I don’t think you’re going to be able to argue with me on this one – how long is it until someone pulls out their MBA Playbook and says, “Wait a second.
This touch-screen assembly is $100? Well we could just tell them to use a tablet, those are $20 now. You can get them overseas for this much.”
How long do you think it is going to be until that happens. At that point, haha! [25:00]
DJ
And at that point Agelant test and measurement equipment business goes out of business. [25:05]
CG
(laughs) [25:07]
DJ
Guaranteed! No! [25:12]
CG
I don’t know man! I’m just saying it’s starting and everybody listening was here to experience it printing chips is coming next. [25:20]
DJ
At the very least, what they would do is they would actually integrate their own custom tablet, right? Into the scope as the screen, so it sits in like a cradle in there and … [25:30]
CG
That’s what I said! [25:32]
DJ
And you can pull it out [25:34]
CG
Oh come on, that was my argument from the beginning! [25:37]
DJ
Yeah but they’re not going to use a third-party tablet. [25:51]
CG
Well technically it would be unless they manufacture the tablet – which they won’t do, they’ll just rebadged. That’s what I’m saying, that’s what I said from the beginning, that it would be ultimately cheaper to use a commodity tablet that they buy on the market from some CM somewhere [26:05]
DJ
And they just sit in there as a cradle in the thing. [26:10]
CG
Yeah! That’s what |I’ve said from the beginning. Re you starting to see the light Dave? [26:14]
DJ
No! your reliability goes out the frickin window. [26:17]
CG
Of course it does! [26:18]
DJ
And you will probably ultimately pay more because if you are looking at the same screen why can’t they just buy … they have got to put all the engineering to designing the scope so why not just buy the same screen that they can buy that’s used in the tablet to begin with. Toss everything else out and just put that in there as a regular scope. [27:30]
CG
Because then you have to engineer the battery and the charger and everything else [27:34]
DJ
But you don’t! Why would you want it integrated because its point was functionality? [27:37]
CG
If you need a battery, what are you going to make a wired one? I mean how are you going to do this Dave? [26:54]
DJ
You don’t do it at all! That’s what I’m saying. [26:55]
CG
Alright, well we’ll wait and see. [26:57]
DJ
It’s ridiculous. It’s not going to happen and if they do it they’ll go out of business. [27:05]
CG
It’s SO going to happen.[27:06]
DJ
I’m telling you! [27:07]
CG
You may be right in the short-term – 10 years or so – but I think I’m right about this. I think we need to have a bed here, that’s what I’m saying. [27:13]
DJ
These devices need to be fit for the purpose and having a removable screen is pointless. It caters to, like, 0.01% of the marker who use these devices. [27:28]
CG
Yeah. [27:29]
DJ
It’s useless to put engineering into a removable screen [27:32]
CG
You were thinking inside the isoscope box [27:34]
DJ
No, I’m thinking like a practical engineer. Meeting the market demand. The market demands don’t want to fiddle around with some dickarse removable thing which has to have some removable docking connector in thank – wank wank – that’ll just go missing ‘cos you’ve taken the think out and it’s gone missing.
It’s bad enough when your scope goes missing from the lab. [27:56]
CG
I have no argument. You are thinking like an engineer Dave. You’re not thinking like a marketer and someone who ends up specing something in. that’s what our listeners should know. That is what ends up making products. Like it or not. [28:10]
DJ
I’m not saying someone’s not going to have a go at it but I’m saying the company that does in this market niche is going to go out of business. You betcha [28:20]
CG
I don’t think so. Maybe people would use it. There’s no reason they’d go out of business.
So there’s an article here, I alluded to earlier. There is a $20 tablet in India right now! [28:32]
DJ
Come on! Where’s it made? It’s made in frickin’ China like everything else. [28:34]
CG
Yes. Granted, we should mention it is a $40 tablet that gets subsidized. [28:43]
DJ
By $20. And you can currently buy a $45 tablet wholesale in China. So yeah, it’s $5 cheaper –woopdi [28:49]
CG
That’s pretty crazy man. Less than the cost of assembly. [28:51]
DJ
I agree it’s the cost of assembly. [28:56]
CG
30% off that if you are gonna buy it wholesale. Something like that. They are selling at a pretty low margin to start with. [29:03]
DJ
Here’s my prediction. You are just going to have to milk this thing and take every little, every little tidbit, every time somebody mentions something to do with the tablet having a user interface you go “Argh, I told you so!” just like this stupid machine where every time somebody mentions that they’ve drawn a little transistor with a frickin’ conductive pen you’re gonna go “I told you so!”. [29:24]
CG
I haven’t done that in a while, I think our audience will note. [29:26]
DJ
Yeah, ‘cos you realise you lost. And you will lose on t his tablet thing too. [29:38]
CG
No, the news cycle is just slow on the printing of chips industry! [29:42]
DJ
Unbelievable. Let’s get on now shall we?
Hey, this is something I want to talk about … [29:54]
CG
Before we do that we should mention our sponsor real quick since they are generously sponsoring us. [30:00]
DJ
Yes, we haven’t mentioned them and we are half-way through the show – and they have stuck with us for a couple of weeks now. [30:10]
CG
Yeah, we are on Week 3. So our sponsor is Club Jameco.
As people may have heard in past shows, you can go there and register and submit a kit idea and you can actually get it made.
People vote on it but once it is voted on they will actually take their product engineers and work on getting it into kit form and putting it all together in part number form. [30:29]
DJ
And you don’t have to do jack. Granted you only get 10% but eh, at least you don’t have to do anything, right? You just come up with the idea and watch it sell. [30:39]
CG
That’s right. [30:41]
DJ
We do that. [30:42]
CG
Exactly, it’s effectively licensing. It’s, you know, it’s a nice deal if you want a hands-off approach. Actually … [30:50]
DJ
You don’t get much of a better deal anywhere else really. [30:57]
CG
I don’t think so. [30:58]
DJ
There’s a few other places which will kind of sort of do this thing but, yeah, like if you think you’re going to come up with an idea and get your 50% it’s not going to happen. [31:09]
CG
If you manufacture you will. [31:11]
But we’ve been picking out kits each week and you can actually see all of them but this week we actually picked out ??? who people probably know from all of his Radio Shack books about electronics and getting started in electronics. He as a kid was working with Club Jameco as well, it’s actually a kit of something from one of his early books called the Atari Punk Console, which I’ve heard of before [31:38]
DJ
Yeah, so have I but he didn’t name it that, right? Somebody else named it. [31:40]
CG
Yes, somebody else named it the Acostic Machine back in the 80’s. [31:42]
DJ
It’s like a … [31:44]
CG
For chip tunes kind of stuff. And it is pretty cool. [31:46]
DJ
It is called the Atari Punk Console because it sounds very 8-bit Atari, 2600 square wave. [31:50]
CG
Chip tune. [31:52]
DJ
Audio, you know? Chip Tune is a recent wank name for it, yeah.
Alright, very cool. [32:04]
CG
So if people are interested, if you want to check out the kit, if you want to check out the program you can go to www.clubjameco.com/theamphour. That also helps support us here at The Amp Hour. So we really appreciate it. [32:19]
DJ
We do. Thank you very much Club Jameco. [32:24]
CG
Alright. So what’s next? [32:28]
DJ
Somebody else is pissed off today, not just us. [32:30]
CG
It’s a trend. [32:31]
DJ
It is! Iron Ball, if I am pronouncing that correctly … [32:33]
CG
Oh yeah. [32:34]
DJ
Who I assume is @IronBall? [32:36]
CG
Yes and it is short for some longer German word I’m not sure of.
DJ
Speaking of Germany, he went to the Electronica Exhibition in Germany, which is one of the world’s biggest electronics exhibitions. It’s like 20 million halls or something! I would love to go to that one day.
I think it’s only on every 2 years isn’t it? [33:02]
CG
It is, every 2 years. My friend got to go this year. I was so jealous! [33:08]
DJ
What for work? [33:09]
CG
Yeah, he’s a buyer so he got to go over there. [33:12]
DJ
There you go. [33:13]
CG
Money! [33:14]
DJ
Yeah. I said 2 years ago I’ll try and scrounge a trip this time around and I just forgot completely. [33:21]
CG
You’ve got 2 more years to procrastinate! [33:30]
DJ
Yeah, I might be in Germany in another 2 years!
Anyway, IronBall is pissed off that when he went in there almost everyone apparently was wearing suits! [33:42]
CG
Yeah! [33:43]
DJ
OK. Right, whatever. [33:45]
CG
Right, it’s a show, sometimes that happens. [33:48]
DJ
Yeah, whatever. But the worst part is apparently him and his friend who weren’t dressed in suits, i.e. dressed as a real engineer, were spoken down to and looked at with contempt because they weren’t dressed up. [34:08
CG
Ignored and laughed at. It’s like .. [34:09]
DJ
From the major vendors. [34:14]
CG
What are these companies doing? They should be targeting people that are dressed normally exclusively, right? You shouldn’t be targeting people in suits! [34:24]
DJ
If you can smell them coming, this is someone we’ve got to talk to! [34:31]
CG
That might be a bit judgemental there David but, er …. [34:34]
DJ
Come on! A bit stereotypical. But he’s naming names. He went to all the biggies, TI, Microchip, Mouser, Fine Elm, TGT? [34:45]
CG
I’m surprised at the consistency of it. That’s what really surprises me because I don’t get it. [34:50]
DJ
The ones I’ve gone to in the US and a couple here in Australia that they have every so often. [35:04]
CG
Yeah. [35:05]
DJ
If you turn up in a suit they are like, “Eugh, you’re a suit, you’re not a real engineer”. [35:10]
CG
I’ve turned up in my Jams. 1980s colourful shorts. Remember those? [35:18]
DJ
No, no. must be a brand name is it? [35:20]
CG
Yeah, they were. [35:22]
DJ
Right, OK. [35:26]
CG
People listening, some of them will know what I am talking about.
But who dresses up for a show? That’s like people dressing up to get on an airplane. Yeah, OK, in the 70s maybe! [35:41]
DJ
Yeah, understandable that people on the stands, yeah. [35:46]
CG
Yeah, exactly. [35:47]
DJ
Yeah, ‘cos you want to give a professional appearance – wank wank – but not the … we have all got to dress similar. [35:55]
I have been on trade show stands where we have official company guidelines on the colour of clothes you are allowed to wear and the type. [36:04]
CG
Right. [36:05]
DJ
Right, tell someone who cares. Oh boy. [36:08]
CG
Yeah. [36:09]
DJ
I don’t know, is this a European thing? Please! European listeners please let us know. It seems totally different. [36:18]
CG
Some places are more fashion conscious than others but still why would you judge someone. You want to target people that just are excited about stuff you know? That’s why I don’t understand that.
At the same time you have to think about who is also manning stands is usually public relations-type people. Not people who are in tune with engineers. Not necessarily. [36:45]
DJ
Well no, I feel at these shows you can usually find someone cluey. Well there’s yeah, ok, a mix of sales and engineer-types on the stands. You can always pick them apart, right? [37:00]
CG
For sure! [37:01]
DJ
If you step back, you can tell the slick arse salesman in his jackabout technical anything, you know? [37:07]
CG
Yeah. [37:08]
DJ
He wouldn’t be able to even flash an LED. And you can tell the engineer. You can spot them a mile away. [37:13]
CG
And not from dress either, just from demeanour. [37:15]
DJ
Or from smell! [37:16]
CG
It’s just from .. usually excitement about a product, that’s a really big one. If you see one who is actually excitedly talking about a tiny little dev ward it is usually an engineer. Someone that just worked on it, someone who wants to show off the capabilities of what they’re working on.
That’s the kind of people I want to talk to at shows anyway. Who wants to talk to the smoozers – eugh! [37:42]
DJ
You can often tell them by their watch too, you know? If they are wearing a cheaparse Casio or one with a calculator watch! Or if they are wearing a shiny analogue Rolex or something – salesman! Whatever. [37:56]
CG
Let’s meet prejudice with prejudice here Dave! [38:00]
DJ
But no, I judge people based on what they SAY and how they act, not what they bloody well look like or if they’re male or female or what race they are or whatever.
Whether or not they do smell from a mile away or whether or not they are some scrawny weedy little nerd or if they’re in a wheelchair or whatever. I don’t give a toss. [38:33]
CG
The one thing to watch out for at shows is to make sure they actually work for the company you are at the stand at. I’ve made that mistake before!
I’m talking to someone and realise you don’t actually work here do you? You’re just looking at this product! It should have tipped me off that you weren’t wearing the shirt! [38:49]
DJ
I’ve done that a dozen times. [38:50]
CG
It’s fun still! Those people are usually more excited! “Let me show you this!”. Cool, yeah, I’d love to see it but you don’t work here! [39:01]
DJ
Wouldn’t it be interesting if I went to this thing?! I wouldn’t be wearing a suit! [39:05]
CG
Me neither. [39:07]
DJ
Or even a collared shirt. No exactly! Oh boy. [39:09]
CG
If people are in Europe please let us know. The point I tried to get across to Iron Ball is that you don’t want to let it get you down.
There are always going to be people who look down on electronics or nerdy people or whatever, whatever the reason is.
Don’t let it turn you away from the field or anything like that. It’s just you have to work to find the awesome people.
There are people out there that are excited and once you find them hang out with those people, they are the ones you want to hang out with anyways. [39:51]
DJ
And don’t let them change you or your opinion. Next time, turn up even rattier-looking deliberately! Right? [40:00]
CG
Right. Or take a picture of the man who made fun of you and put him on a T-shirt. [40:02]
DJ
Yeah. Put the photo on Twitter and I’ll retweet it. “This guy is a dick head”. Yeah. [40:06]
CG
Oh yes! [40:07]
DJ
Man! Unbelievable. Yeah, I haven’t encountered that at shows before. I find the vast majority of people roaming around are roaming around in very casual attire. [40:24]
CG
Yeah, yeah. [40:25]
DJ
I don’t know. Different market. [40:27]
CG
It’s too bad but hopefully it doesn’t happen too much. [40:30]
DJ
Is it similar to our very techy but non-hardcore shows like the CES in Las Vegas and stuff like that? ‘Cos I’ve never been to one of those. [40:32]
CG
Me neither. [40:33]
DJ
We have to get out more. [40:35]
CG
We do! Tell me about it. Again, though, electronics nerds so maybe not! [40:50]
DJ
Fair call.
You wanted to crap on about another trend.[40:56]
CG
Yes. Which one?! [40:57]
DJ
Yes, which one, yeah. You’ve got many! [40:59]
CG
I do, yeah. [41:01]
DJ
More ones than you can poke a stick at.
You wanted to crap on about web-based e-CAD tools. [41:09]
CG
Yes, this has been an increasing trend. This past week we saw an announcement that Upfurter had schematics that you could share online and collaborate and everything. There was a similar one called Circuit B.
This week Upfruter also included layout and they have – what else – I think they have it where you can actually start to export to CAD companies and everything like that. [41:40]
DJ
Right. [41:41]
CG
That’s really interesting. I started emailing as well with Circuits IO, which was up online. They had had a similar … [41:51]
DJ
I think they contacted me as well. [41:53]
CG
Yeah, they had a similar thing a couple of weeks prior. I have been talking to – I think it was Ben – about what they are planning to do. It’s actually a similar service. It’s got a layout tool, a schematic. [42:07]
DJ
Every man and his dog seems to be doing this. Aren’t some of the vendors offering … aren’t Digikey or somebody like that offering similar online tools? [42:17]
CG
Yes, we’ve talked about that before. [42:19]
DJ
Everyone’s jumping on the bandwagon. [42:21]
CG
I would put Circuits IO and Upfurther in their own category as they have a layout tool in the browser which is different. [42:27]
DJ
That’s the differentiation I think. [42:28]
CG
Yeah, Digikey had a layout tool for schematics and they were interactive schematics . ultimately that’s really not that useful, it’s interesting. [42:39]
DJ
Of course. No, we have talked about this. Why would anyone bother to use an online web tool except if you want to just share a simple one-off circle or something like that. [42:49]
CG
Exactly. [42:50]
DJ
It’s very limited. The differentiator seems to be the inclusion of a PCB tool to make it a proper eCAD package. [42:57]
CG
Right. And the real power there is not just that they are free tools – at least for now – their schematic entry and layout is free. Ki CAD is also free – I’ve talked about Ki CAD. [43:13]
DJ
Of course. [43:14]
CG
But the real killer – this really is good – is that you can watch someone lay out a board live, which is cool because you can work with friends. [43:24]
DJ
It’s cool but is it practical? [43:26]
CG
I’m going to get to that Dave! [42:27]
DJ
A live collaboration feature – I can tell you I’ve tried to use it, I tried to use it during the development. It is cool but from a practical point of view it sucks arse. [44:31]
CG
Sucks ass yeah.[44:32]
DJ
Arse. Arse. Or how do you pronounce arse in Chinese now? [43:50]
CG
Oh, I don’t know. [43:55]
DJ
Sucks arse. Sorry to our Chinese listeners. [44:00]
CG
But the tough part about that is just the dynamics of team interaction, there, working with someone on an electronics project is immediately jumping into design by committee. That is the definition of it. Because you have multiple people. [44:16]
DJ
Yeah. It introduces solo creatures. They don’t like being watched over their shoulder as they design something. They don’t like collaborating. [44:21]
CG
Some engineer like collaborating. I do. I like working on big projects. Bigger than I can do by myself. [44: 30]
DJ
Of course. [44:31]
CG
But at the same time I don’t want someone to jump into my schematic halfway through and say why didn’t you do this and that. Then all I can say to them is you weren’t here, I already tried all this stuff. That is the worst feeling in the world when someone rattles through all of the things that they thought and you’ve already tried all of t hem – and you have to prove it. [44:53]
DJ
Yeah. [44:54]
CG
That is worse than being on the phone with a technical magazine talking about what parts you are authorised to buy. Right?
I would honestly rather sit on the phone with someone in a call centre telling them what parts I am authorised to buy. How bad is that? [45:07]
DJ
(laughs) [45:08]
CG
Pretty bad right? [45:10]
DJ
Yeah. [45:11]
CG
So it is just frustrating because you have to defend everything, right? You want to get to the end and then have a design review where you can say, “Here is the holistic view of what I was looking at.” Then you defend yourself. [45:24]
DJ
So what are you getting at here? That the collaboration aspect of these tools is a wank? [45:29]
CG
It’s awesome. [45:30]
DJ
It’s awesome but not practical. [45:33]
CG
For revision tracking. Revision tracking is actually what the power of this is. [45:38]
DJ
Yes. OK. [45:30]
CG
And it’s public revision tracking. [45:32]
DJ
Got it. [45:33]
CG
That’s what they were going for – a Git Hub style.
If you think about how this is set up it is probably you move a component from coordinate X Y to coordinate X2 Y2, they are just tracking that in a database. That is what they’re doing, so they can backtrack it. [46:00]
DJ
Mmm, hmmm. [46:01]
CG
That’s good and bad. If you are the kind of person who likes to make little moves and adjustments that gets really annoying.
But at the same time it is all recorded and so that’s nice. The Git Hub kind of thing is more of a snapshot and then you commit it, right? So there is a difference there because you don’t always want to capture all the minutiae, sometimes you want to capture the difference. [46:26]
DJ
That doesn’t work well for me. I’m one of these nervous people who have this habit … it’s almost a subconscious thing of saving my work every 2 minutes. Every time I make a major change SAVE, SAVE. Boom, boom.
I have got this macro finger thing happening on the keyboard. I’m paranoid. I end up with 1,000 different revision files in my backup folder. So this online collaboration thing is, for me, when you are live doing it, it would be a pain in the arse. Even though I haven’t tried this I can just imagine it would be stupid.
It would be like at the end of the day when I choose to commit it, then that’s fine and dandy. [47:14]
CG
Right. That is what Git Hub is, right? [47:16]
DJ
Right. [47:17]
CG
It’s an action, right? It’s a decision. [47:22]
DJ
Right. [47:23]
CG
Yeah. Good and bad sides. [47:25]
DJ
Yeah. [47:26]
CG
Ultimately it’s cool and it’s good for collaboration in general. I don’t think live collaboration is really … I think that’s more of a wank, like you said. But it is cool, it really is.
Now the real thing that I would be interested in, the thing they are working on, is the backend stuff. So working with board houses and having one click orders. [47:59]
DJ
Yeah, they mentioned that to me as well, yeah. [48:02]
CG
And all the other stuff with it. They said eventually they may go towards a model where one person can upload it and then it becomes a library like a sub-circuit library so you have non-inverting things, you pull them out and it just drops it in your circuit. [48:21]
DJ
And that back-end stuff can be their revenue stream. [48:26]
CG
Right. [48:27]
DJ
Yeah, that keeps them going. So potentially all the tools can be free but they offer these value-added, easy one-click services, that’s where they can make their money from. [48:40]
CG
Exactly. That shows the value for you and me. [48:42]
DJ
Exactly. That’s quite viable. [48:43]
CG
Yeah. Ki CAD is based on open-source software, goodwill, wanting to work on a project. [48:52]
DJ
I would caution them and I think they may already be doing this but if they’re not I would caution them if they are going to do something like that, make that their revenue model, make sure that anyone can use it – not just somebody using their tools.
Make sure that anyone can use that service by uploading their own things from whatever.
If they want to make money, for example, on getting the board manufactured, upload it using another tool. [49:15]
CG
I like that idea. It starts to smell of the ecosystem thing that I complemented and lamented earlier. [49:28]
DJ
Wank word. [49:29]
CG
Of locking people in. it’s good for the business side but bad for the consumer side.
Some of it would be a good benefit, to be able to say one-click order board, order the parts, even send it to an assembler, that kind of stuff. That’s the holy grail.
Granted you are going to pay a margin for that but, more than likely, if you are going to be doing anything fast it is totally worth it.
If you can do it right and you have the library updated and the parts already associated – that is a killer app. Really, it would be.
But at the same time do you have to pay money for it? There’s a lot of other questions. [50:09]
DJ
Yeah, right. [50:10]
CG
I told that to them too. [50:12]
DJ
As always, the devil is in the detail. One small little thing can absolutely piss somebody off and they won’t use your tool again. [50:22]
CG
Yeah, right. And this is all before we have talked about the actual layout.
There are tons and tons of quirks and mentor and alegra and all of these things. There’s just so many quirks that people are used to and people say their preferences – well no, it is more of a thing they learned on, right? [50:42]
DJ
Correct. [50:43]
CG
People can re=-learn anything but they don’t want to. more often than not they will throw down the money for the licence to just keep doing it the way they are doing it because that shift is so hard.
Which means they will only really get new people or people that are very adventurous. [50:59]
DJ
Yeah. It would be interesting to see how this whole web-based eCAD market folds out. I don’t think they’re going to take any part of the professional market at all. I can’t see it. [51:14]
CG
Well, in near term. [51:15]
DJ
Yeah, near term. [51:16]
CG
If you get people now, students, college projects, working with their buddies on a board and they get really used to it, that’s the same kind of thing that happens. They develop these ties and then if the company can survive the fledgling stages of being a company then yeah, they could make it.
They could grow and continue to develop their tool, the browser tools and web stuff can keep getting better and cloud storage isn’t going away anytime soon. [51:45]
DJ
Another big problem with this though, is that you don’t have a snapshot of the program at that particular point in time. Because you have got to run it in the browser on their server or whatever it is. [52:04]
CG
Right. [52:05]
DJ
So if you come back in 5 years’ time and that file was done back in a different version, you can’t just bring out an old floppy disc. [52:13]
CG
Right. [52:14]
DJ
Going back! Here’s the install version I used to design this one. You can’t go back and use it. [52:20]
CG
Which is a big deal! [52:21]
DJ
It is a big deal and a big fear of any professional working in the eCAD market. [52:27]
CG
Yeah, exactly. On the other side, that could be a value-add. They could sell you a ;snapshot every six months. That could be a revenue model for them but that’ snot for me or you to really say. They could figure that out. [52:38]
DJ
Of course, yeah. [52:39]
CG
Personally, what I would like to see – and what I told them, it’s a big thing for me – is I would love to see it so I am working online with you on a board, even just daily trading back and forth because we are on different time zones. I can leave you an email, here’s what I did today, and you take it away and then you do the same.
Say I go up to my wife’s farm and there’s on Internet out there, right? What I want more than anything, I want this to work with Ki CAD. I know that is very selfish for me but at the same time all that source code is online and getting that kind of compatibility and then that offline mode, if all that stuff was together – wooo!
Man, that would be .. you know these are all just blue sky wishlists but if anyone else is listening out there and you do it first, I’ll try it! [53:27]
DJ
Speaking of blue sky stuff … there’s a few comments in here in regards to this post on the Reddit. People start talking about oh I hope they get the 3D modelling right and I hope they get the simulation right.
Here we go! [53:45]
CG
Yeah. [53:46]
DJ
In these companies the upverter and the circuit IOs – stick to core PCB and schematic and get it nailed and get it right. Don’t dick around wasting your time. [53:58]
CG
Or pull in good stuff. Pull in Ki CAD or something else. [54:01]
DJ
Or something like that. Or have easy exports to a better tool that will do the job. Like 3D viewing or something like that. Export it. [54:13]
CG
Yeah. [54:14]
DJ
Exactly. Rather than “I know, we’ll put a autorouter in this thing, we’ll spend the next 12 months of our development on it” and nobody gives a shit! They just want a schematic. [54:30]
CG
Public service announcement: “If you are using an autorouter, you are wrong. You are wrong, you slap your hand right now Mr or Mrs” [54:41]
DJ
Right. And don’t dick around doing a simulator! [54:44]
CG
No. oh God no. [54:45]
DJ
Export it to iSpice. Thank you very much. End of story. [54:50]
CG
Done. Solid. [54:51]
DJ
So that everyone can continue to work on their specialised tools. I know it’s not the whole integrated model and it is this silo-based thing. Another wank word if you are plying along Wank Word Bingo at home. [55:06]
CG
Oo we are adding new terms this week to the bingo sheet. [55:11]
DJ
Did we? Excellent. Silos. You can tick that one if it’s one there.
Yes, it is silo-based because that actually works. [55:20]
CG
Yeah. And if you do it well people come back. [55:24]
DJ
Yeah. [55:25]
CG
But at the interface. If you are really good at doing schematics and you are going to have someone else work on it, keep your format open.
Everybody is afraid but that’s one of the best things about the open-source hardware and software movement. People figure out open data, even though you don’t get to control every piece of it, you get to control some of it. You get to do the one thing really well and if someone else comes in then you go work on something else.
I know that sucks from a business perspective but from an overall perspective from a consumer’s standpoint, that’s awesome.
I really liked when Eagle went to the XML format. I thought that was really good. [56:02]
DJ
Yeah, yeah. [56:03]
CG
I haven’t used it since but the fact that people can see that stuff and that it’s more open, that’s a really good strat. So kudos to them. [56:12]
DJ
Exactly. [56:13]
CG
That would allow Upfurter or Circuits IO to pull in that data if they were just going to the back-end order PCBs and parts and everything else at once. [56:25]
DJ
We want you to succeed. We love this stuff! [56:28]
CG
(laughs) [56:29]
DJ
I still don’t like the online aspect, sorry! [56:33]
CG
That’s OK but if it’s out there, right, it’s nice. [56:36]
DJ
It is. [56:37]
CG
If multiple people could see it at once you could do a tutorial and show people how to lay out stuff. That’s kind of cool. Actually showing a layout live, that’s a cool thing. From a class perspective. Online learning is going through the roof. What happens is you don’t want to watch it all at once on a video. [56:57]
DJ
Why not? That’s a very good condensed format. [57:06]
CG
I guess so but if you want live interaction with it [57:09]
DJ
Ah, live interaction! [57:18]
CG
Then you actually have that kind of option now. [57:17]
DJ
Yeah, yeah. [57:18]
CG
And then there’s the whole 3D CAD thing. You and I were talking about this before the show too. Tinker CAD. It’s, er …. er. Most of us are looking for a 3D CAD program, it’s not. [57:30]
DJ
Some are. And I thought I’d found one and here’s a rant. This pisses me off. [57:36]
CG
(laughs) [57:37]
DJ
I’ve tried dozens of these different free 3D CAD tools to try and do simple stuff with my 3D printer. And input step files of project cases and just do a simple mode, put some holes in it and export to the maker bot thing. [57:59]
CG
Right! The thing! [58:00]
DJ
Most of them either do not import step files correctly, they don’t do this, they don’t do that, they don’t export to STEL properly, they are a pain in the arse to use, they are not intuitive, whatever.
I’ve tried them all, I think, and I finally found one that seemed to just be simple and do the job. It was Autodesk 123D. Get it? 123D? [58:22]
CG
Yes, 3D. [58:26]
DJ
I just liked the name! it brings back memories of Lotus 123 and 3D.
CG
Oh God. Lotus. The bane of my existence. [58:33]
DJ
Yeah. [58:34]
CG
I still use Lotus Notes if you didn’t know that. [58:37]
DJ
Oh really? [58:38]
CG
It’s terrible, absolutely terrible. [58:41]
DJ
That was classy. They bet big, by the way, bit of computer history. Back then they wrote it from the ground up in ADO 86 assembly language just for the IBM pc. They were betting that the IBM pc would be THE platform. They won! [59:05]
CG
Yeah, for a little while! [59:07]
DJ
Yeah, it was the industry-standard for maybe 5 years there or something. [59:13]
CG
Yeah. [59:14]
DJ
Yeah. [59:15]
CG
But that was a different era right? [59:18]
DJ
Yeah. [59:19]
CG
You had to be so vertically integrated. These days it is so distributive. Eugh. [59:22]
DJ
Anyway, let’s not go there.
Autodesk, the makers of AutoCAD and all that high end stuff. This free tool 123D I was using, the BETA version, and it seemed to do exactly what I want. It imported the step file brilliantly from Polycase and Hammond, the project cases, it imported them. I was able to add holes easily, delete things, exactly what I wanted. [59:47]
It had a specific export function to export to a 3D printer file. An STL. It was specifically designed for that. I thought ‘Brilliant’. So yesterday I actually started shooting a video review of this, right?
Well a video tutorial of how to use this tool, 123D, to do project cases and actually print something useful with your 3D printer instead of doing little Yoda heads or something like that. [1:00:15]
So I found they had release the new version. The actually full version of it. It wasn’t Beta anymore, they went to the proper release. Oh! I download that, it’ll have a few extra improvements.
Argh! No! they have totally changed everything from the Beta version. It seems that no longer can you export to an STL file. You kind of can but you’ve got to log in, you’ve got to log in to their online account thing. You’ve got to log in, save it to My Projects in that account file or something. It’s absolutely ridiculous. [1:01:03]
I quote them (I can’t pronounce your name so I won’t try): This release version was based on all this user feedback and it was designed to be so simple to use and it was to be designed for people who do not have a 3D printer at home because nobody has a 3D printer at home!
So they have optimised this thing to export so that it automatically goes to their website and then you can order your part from a list of approved vendors. You know? 3D printer objects. [1:01:46]
CG
Yeah, like Shapeways and stuff like that. [1:01:48]
DJ
Yeah, like that sort of stuff. Saying that nobody has a 3D printer at home implies that nobody ever will. So we are going to drop support for direct printing. [1:02:02]
CG
That sucks! [1:02:03]
DJ
They have dumbed the whole thing down. They are implying that the users of this software are so dumb that it would be too confusing for them to have a menu at the top that says Export To STL File! [1:02:20]
CG
Right! [1:02:21]
DJ
That’s what they are saying. [1:02:22]
CG
They don’t want to. [1:02:23]
DJ
Man! I liked the Beta version. It’s probably the only programme I’ve ever used where the final release version, or a next version of the program, is so massively dumb compared to the previous version! [1:02:41]
CG
Right. [1:02:42]
DJ
I don’t know! Oh. (screams and bangs head on table) [01:02:50]
CG
That’s good audio Dave. [1:02:51]
DJ
Thank you very much! [1:02:53]
CG
That’s ultimately what it comes down to, right? [01:02:56]
DJ
Yeah, it’s free but, oh man, anyway I’m going to struggle on. I’m going to continue to struggle with it because it was fairly user-intuitive before. But they have changed the whole menu interface and everything. Argh! Idiots. [1:03:13]
CG
Yeah. [1:03:14]
DJ
Anyway, so they’ve gone all this online cloud, web-based thing. Blah. And the things’s available s a tablet version as well and they are saying that that one doesn’t support the STL export at all.
You have to use the pc version. And they’ve got a web-based version as well, just like we were talking about Upfurter and Circuit IO.
They have a web-based version that doesn’t support export either! [1:03:43]
CG
mmmm. [1:03:44]
DJ
Oh. Fail, all-round. Stop me please! [1:03:47]
CG
Speak with your wallet.
Well the interesting thing about all of this stuff … You keep up with technology, I keep up with technology but a lot people in this industry are aging and they are kind of finding it hard to keep up with technology. Whether or not people do is up to them … to their own detriment.
I’m interested in this because we keep seeing stories about ageism, right? And if you don’t keep up with the times there’s always value in knowing older stuff – still being a Cobalt Cowboy and being able to program assembly and yada yada yada. [1:04:36]
DJ
Design analogue! [1:04:39]
CG
Hell yeah! Being an analogue designer. I am at the younger end of the bracket I think. [1:04:45]
DJ
You’re dinosaur dude! [1:04:47]
CG
To be honest the analogue people most people talk about are chip designers. I am an analogue system designer but even that is old guys, come on. [1:04:56]
DJ
Ok so you are a flying dinosaur! [1:04:59]
CG
(pregnant pause) … yes. I’d say I’m more like one of those little tiny dinosaurs that nibbles on ankles. [1:05:04]
DJ
(laughs) [01:05]
CG
I wanted to pair my question, though, with a question you posted as well. You posted a question that someone had on the EV Blog Forum that if it is too late to ever change to electronics.
My question is once you are in electronics should people then plan to move out of electronics. Because I know people that have and I just think it’s interesting that people actually plan their own obsolescence as n electronics person. [1:05:40]
DJ
I don’t think you’d ever plan it would you? You’d just do it. If you got jack of it you would just bugger off. [1:05:43]
CG
I know a guy that’s in school to get an MBA. That’s technically planning. He said he’s going to become a product person. [1:05:50]
DJ
OK, yep. Worthless. From a practical person to just somebody who’s in the way. Yeah. Good move. [1:06:04]
CG
I wouldn’t say that to his face! [1:06:06]
DJ
You can learn more. [1:06:07]
CG
Yeah, and that’s usually what it comes down to. that’s a plateau, usually, of earning potential but I think some of that is also people leave the industry so they move onto other stuff and so it kind of is self-fulfilling. [1:06:19]
DJ
Right. [1:06:20]
CG
So I don’t know, I don’t know why I brought this up! Probably because you posted about this too. [1:06:28]
DJ
It’s ‘cos it’s near the end of the show and we’re struggling.
Is it too late to change, somebody asked. Are you ever too old to change from whatever it is you’re doing now and get into the field of electronics. [1:06:47]
CG
A lot of people who are hobbyists and interested in getting into electronics ask, can I get into it as a career.
I think the answer is no. [1:06:54]
DJ
Of course it is. [1:06:55]
CG
It is too late or not? [1:06:67]
DJ
No, it’s not too late. It never is too late. If you have a passion to do something, you do it. [1:07:08]
CG
Right. And the big question now is whether you want to do it as a living. If it is something you just enjoy doing is it something you want to try and earn money at. ‘cos there’s a whole other range of things that come along with doing electronics as a living versus doing it as a hobby.
I can’t tell you how many days I’ve spent just figuring out bombs. [1:07:27]
DJ
Doing electronics for a living can be frustrating. [1:07:31]
CG
Exactly. As you say … [1:07:32]
DJ
Doing it when it’s real. [1:07:35]
CG
You don’t get into electronics to get your design job, you get into it because that’s just what you do and then you get your design jollies at home. That’s the idea you always promote. [1:07:44]
DJ
You get the crumbs at work where you can. [1:07:50]
CG
Right,, of course. [1:07:52]
DJ
Usually it is more crumb-like than feasting every day. [1:07:56]
CG
Exactly. But you can continually design circuits if you want to and never fabricate them or you just want to plop stuff down on a breadboard. [1:08:06]
DJ
I love a friend on mine who said that in a big company being an electronics engineer is like seagulls pecking over the last chip. [1:08:17]
CG
(laughs) Mine, mine, mine! [1:08:21]
DJ
Yeah. The really interesting work that people want to do is few and far between. [1:08:28]
CG
Of course. [1:08:29]
DJ
And there’s a lot of internal competition to do that. [1:08:32]
CG
Yes, best-case scenario you work on something very small within a much bigger platform or assembly and you get a nice chunk of that design but at the same time that also means you’re focusing just on that chunk of design.
You don’t get as much system-level stuff, which is the stuff that I love. [1:08:51]
DJ
System-level stuff – a good engineer can be as boring as bat shit sometimes because you are so bogged down in the overall system design that you can’t do anything real. [1:09:04]
CG
That’s true. You don’t have time for tinkering and optimising. [1:09:10]
DJ
Yeah. You find that you’re not actually designing any circuits. You are not laying out any boards. You’re not doing any simulations. You’re too busy doing paperwork at the top end. [1:09:20]
CG
I guess it depends on how you define ‘system’. [1:09:24]
DJ
There’s a huge range. [1:09:28]
CG
Yeah, there is. I think to the poster on the forum, it’s not too late, try and go in with your eyes open, talk to a lot of people. Of course listen to your favourite Amp Hour podcast, electronics podcast, which might be The Amp Hour, to learn more about the experiences of two people! And wonderful guests as well.
Talking to people is the important thing. Figure out what you want to do and how a day actually might be like in order to make that decision. [1:10:02]
DJ
Mmm, hmm. Yep. It’s tough. If you like something you cannot make a bad decision by doing it for a living. [01:10:10]
CG
Unless that thing is … let’s see, insert something funny here …!
Unless you like punting puppies. That’s a bad decision. Do not do that. Bad, bad decision. [1:10:25]
DJ
Punting cats is fine though! [1:10:28]
CG
I might edit this out! [1:10:31]
Ok one last thing I wanted to point out is a fun bit of trivia. I was talking with DigiKey on Twitter. [1:10:38]
DJ
I can’t believe you have never heard of this!
CG
Ok well you obviously know what this is – the Dash ND at the end of a DigiKey part number. The problem is you come from the catalogue days and I didn’t I think that’s what it is. At the end of every DigiKey part is … Dave? [1:10:48]
DJ
No discount. Bugger off. [1:10:49]
CG
That’s so weird. So they said that is stuck on every part. [1:10:52]
DJ
Because it doesn’t mean that anymore, they just stuck it on as a differentiator to identify that as a DigiKey part number, as opposed to another manufacturer’s part number.
Often the DigiKey part number will be exactly the same as the manufacturer’s part number with the –ND on the end. [1:11:27]
CG
That’s what I asked about because some of them have their own part numbers.
I like it when it’s just the manufacture part number and you just tag a little thing on the end. That’s great. That makes it real easy! [1:11:36]
DJ
Yep. [1:11:37]
CG
I think we’re good for this week. What do you think? Anything else? [1:11:43]
DJ
Nah, it’s done and dusted. I’ve ranted enough. I’ll go back to this pathetic 123D program. [1:11:49]
CG
Oh yeah, get back to that! [1:11:50]
DJ
You get what you pay for folks!” [1:11:43]
CG
Video software is another one. You paid for that, that worked out OK right? [1:11:59]
DJ
Yeah. People watch my videos for free and much like our program, is free. [1:12:02]
CG
You get what you pay for. [1:12:08]
DJ
You do folks. [1:12:09]
CG
Suckers! [1:12:11]
DJ
You are in no position to demand anything! This is a dictatorship. [1:12:15]
CG
180 degree turn – if you do like this program we love it when people give us a nice rating on iTunes. If you don’t you can give us a crappy rating too. iTunes ratings are great. If you want to tweet to us or about us we’re @theamphour on Twitter.
We’ll see you next week. [1:12:34]
DJ
Tell all your friends![1:12:39]